[sdsting]

Ok so I did an oil change today and found this metal at the bottom of the dirty oil pan. Tried to lift the fragments out with a magnet but they are aluminum.

Very concerned, obviously, so I took the fragments into the shop where I bought the bike and had 3 mechanics + service mgr discussing

Everyone agreed that these fragments are threads from the oil drain plug threading. The most knowledgeable of the guys said that these aluminum threads can’t take much more torque than finger tightening, said that this happens all the time on sport bikes with guys over tightening and ripping the threads off. He suggested that this probably happened on my last oil change and when I removed the drain plug for this change the threads came pouring out. This seems to be what happened, however I only tighten until I feel the new crush washer collapse then I stop, so I’m not sure how this could have happened. He suggested that I go home and drain the oil out and inspect the hole for missing threads. That’s what I did and sure enough that appears to be the issue. Here are some pics

The service guy had told me that if this is in fact what it is then it’s a fairly easy fix, they do it all the time, forgot the term he used but basically it is rethreading the hole. The big question is will Yamaha pay to have this done. He said if they had done all the oil changes then definitely yes, but since I’ve done the last 2 myself then they would have to run it by Yamaha and see what they say. Will be going back up there tomorrow to get this started and I’ll keep you apprised of how things develop.

Main reason for this thread is don’t let this happen to you. It appears that these aluminum threads are extremely fragile

 

[LandShark]

Wow! Sorry man, but glad you caught it before any more damage happened. Hope they pay for the damage. It's not our fault for a faulty design flaw. Thanks for the heads up though. Gonna be keeping a check on this on my own.

 

[mkohnen]

Re: WARNING: Don’t let this happen to you..

Ditto. will definitely make sure to not over tighten

 

[kraaazymike]

.... Hope they pay for the damage. It's not our fault for a faulty design flaw....

What design flaw? The case is aluminum and the torque rating is only 31ft/lbs. It doesn't take much to over do it if you're not using a torque wrench.

Sorry this happened to you, Sting. Good luck!

 

[straightjacket]

That can also happen when putting the bolt back in. It is very easy to crossthread into alluminum, especialy upside down where you cant see really well. Most likely they wont cover because thats technicaly your bad, sorry? But it is easy to fix with either a helicoil, or going to the next size plug.

 

[BillyD66]

Thanks for the heads up on this. At least the bike is rideable. You could have totally stripped them and then be looking at a tow as well.
The fix is pretty simple and you could do yourself. Decades ago worked in a factory and we used these in all the aluminum pieces since they weren't strong enough alone to hold bolts. IMO this design by Yamaha for a drain plug is a bad one.

Anyway what you want/need is called a helicoil insert. You just have to find the right size for the drain plug and drill out the hole larger OR if there are enough threads left use an insert to fit that hole and find a corresponding drain plug to fit the new smaller hole.

Regardless make sure the shop isn't charging you an arm and a leg for this since the job isn't involved or anything(15 to 20 minutes tops). Then again they gave you some free diagnostic advice so have to factor that in... You should probably be able to filter and reuse the oil as well since it is new. Best of luck and again thanks for the warning.

http://www.emhart.com/brands/heli-coil

 

[UrbanRage]

Wow man thanks for the heads up. Glad to hear it is a easy fix.

 

[elle]

Thanks for the info. I don't do my own oil change but have had a friend do it and a bike shop. I'll have to keep on eye on this.

 

[Skwerlee]

Regardless make sure the shop isn't charging you an arm and a leg for this since the job isn't involved or anything(15 to 20 minutes tops). Then again they gave you some free diagnostic advice so have to factor that in... You should probably be able to filter and reuse the oil as well since it is new. Best of luck and again thanks for the warning.

http://www.emhart.com/brands/heli-coil

15-20 minute job? wouldn't you need to drop the pan to do it correctly? i know some guys put a bunch of Vaseline on the drill bit to try and catch all of the metal shavings but I'd be concerned them getting in the oil pan.

 

[BillyD66]

Regardless make sure the shop isn't charging you an arm and a leg for this since the job isn't involved or anything(15 to 20 minutes tops). Then again they gave you some free diagnostic advice so have to factor that in... You should probably be able to filter and reuse the oil as well since it is new. Best of luck and again thanks for the warning.

http://www.emhart.com/brands/heli-coil

15-20 minute job? wouldn't you need to drop the pan to do it correctly? i know some guys put a bunch of Vaseline on the drill bit to try and catch all of the metal shavings but I'd be concerned them getting in the oil pan.

Sure probably an underestimate on my part. I'm good for that and a "Bill" hour can be way longer than an actual "clock" hour as my wife knows all too well. Then again I'm a perfectionist on many things to a fault. Still 1 hour shop time would seem reasonable considering they are trained mechanics and have lefts, tools etc.
And, yes, the best way would be to drop the pan but they'll probably just elevate the front wheel for clearance and drill as you stated. If they are dropping the pan then the labor and shop supplies would go up accordingly. As for the residual shavings, you could flush them out w/ the oil, filter it, repeat and reuse as needed or till you are confident they are gone. Any that got left behind should be trapped by the oil filter as part of the normal process.

Personally, I'd get an estimate(and find out if Yamaha would cover some/all) but probably just do the job myself if you have a jack/lift/stands. You could get all the parts from the dealership except probably the helicoil insert tool. But it comes down to time and money and how long the bike will be out of commission. Here in the Midwest the riding season is ending quick

Overall I'm surprised he is the only person to have this happen to since I still feel that Yamaha should have used a helicoil from the beginning since this part gets removed and installed probably at least once a season. Will be watching closely myself.

 

[11Stryker]

My experience shows that helicoils suck and can turn back out eventually. The best way to go is with a timesert. Available at most Auto Parts. These last 2 threads lock into place with the installer tool. and also have a sealing flange so that you won't have oil leaking around threads like helicoil. Ben doing this for over 35 years. Just saying! LOL here is example.

 

[sdsting]

I appreciate the discussion by all.

In my intial conversation with the main mechanic I believe he used the term “timesert” as 11Stryker mentioned. And he definatley said this is a simple prosedure (like Billy mentioned) and they would not need to remove the pan or open the engine up. The guy said they do this all the time, mainly on the sport bikes because of overtightening or cross thrheading. Doesn’t this seem like a red flag if it’s that comon?

In anycase I’m head up there this morning to show them the pics you saw and plead my case. I won’t be arguing what happened but rather how easily it happened, and a steel bolt going into aluminum threads seems to be a recipe for failure. And I bought the bike there along with 5yr waranty from them, only has 3,500m on the bike, bla bla bla… but I’ll let you all know how it turns out.

 

[sdsting]

Ok so I went up to the dealership this morning to discuss the issue and bottom line - they took the bike back and got started on the repair while I waited, but not covered by waranty. They did a “timeset” which means they drilled out the hole so timeset could fit in. My original drain-plug bolt is still being used, but now it is screwing into hard-plastic threads instead of soft aluminum, which the guy said is much better (at least for avoiding this issue happening again..). Took them a little over 2hrs and cost me $175 incl new oil, which I’m not too concerned about, figure it could have been a lot worse.

Here’s the part you should remember - the mechanic described how this happens: he said the very slightest of over tightening will pull on the top aluminum thread and stretch it out. Then the next time you go to back the bolt out it pushes all of the threads to move and now an irriversable process has started of cross-threading & stripping etc… seriouly it doesn’t take much. He also said that he doesn’t like to use a torque wrench because even on the correct setting it can still over tighten. Do it by feel. When you feel that crush washer collaps then just an ever so slight additional torque and then stop.

 

[Skwerlee]

Ok so I went up to the dealership this morning to discuss the issue and bottom line - they took the bike back and got started on the repair while I waited, but not covered by waranty. They did a “timeset” which means they drilled out the hole so timeset could fit in. My original drain-plug bolt is still being used, but now it is screwing into hard-plastic threads instead of soft aluminum, which the guy said is much better (at least for avoiding this issue happening again..). Took them a little over 2hrs and cost me $175 incl new oil, which I’m not too concerned about, figure it could have been a lot worse.

Here’s the part you should remember - the mechanic described how this happens: he said the very slightest of over tightening will pull on the top aluminum thread and stretch it out. Then the next time you go to back the bolt out it pushes all of the threads to move and now an irriversable process has started of cross-threading & stripping etc… seriouly it doesn’t take much. He also said that he doesn’t like to use a torque wrench because even on the correct setting it can still over tighten. Do it by feel. When you feel that crush washer collaps then just an ever so slight additional torque and then stop.

glad they got you all squared away. Thanks for the information

 

[saclean]

Thanks for the heads up, and reminder, I have not changed the oil on my bike's in twenty years, since my old Honda and Harley days, but both bikes are due soon. I used to get a new copper crush washer everytime i did an oil change. not sure if they still recommend this though. 8)

 

[Skwerlee]

Thanks for the heads up, and reminder, I have not changed the oil on my bike's in twenty years, since my old Honda and Harley days, but both bikes are due soon. I used to get a new copper crush washer everytime i did an oil change. not sure if they still recommend this though. 8)

They do recommend a new crush washer every time. My local dealer's service technician told me the crush washer is used to help prevent over-tightening/stripping the threads.

 

[Topgun61]

How tight did you tighten it? Did you grab the end of the wrench in give it a yank?

Just curious. I generally tighten it keeping my hand close to the end of the wrench that is on the bolt. That way you don't use the leverage of the wrench and feel like
it isn't tight yet.

Agreed though, aluminum is crazy for that but I suppose that is one way to keep the weight down on the bike as well.

 

[BillyD66]

How tight did you tighten it? Did you grab the end of the wrench in give it a yank?

Just curious. I generally tighten it keeping my hand close to the end of the wrench that is on the bolt. That way you don't use the leverage of the wrench and feel like
it isn't tight yet.

Agreed though, aluminum is crazy for that but I suppose that is one way to keep the weight down on the bike as well.

It's a new world "aluminum" and we are mostly from the good old days... Get it tight and then one last turn/torque for good measure. Looks like that is what starts this nasty process. Timesert kits are about 60-75 on Amazon so might even be worth considering the mod down the road. Close by members could even share and split the cost.
Reason I say that is how many of us do the oil change right before a nice long trip? Hate to see that cancelled. And as a bonus you get a stronger fit. This thread now has me worried about changing the oil which up to this point was almost a no-brainer!!
<Soapbox Rant Alert> Why don't we have a dipstick for the oil anyway? The site window is basically useless since the bike needs to be standing up and it's still on the very bottom of the bike. Sure the electronics are there but I'd prefer not to have my only insurance against colossal failure be an idiot light. Is there an aftermarket dipstick for the bike? <End of Rant>

 

[sdsting]

Billy – interesting you should bring up the oil level … as you mentioned it’s a bit difficult to get the level right while you are sitting on the bike, and my lift doesn’t put the bike completely level. So I came up with a quick & easy method; I set my digial camera pointed at the oil-level window and set the timer to 10 sec, then sit on the bike until the flash goes off, then check the pic. to see how much more oil to add. After this pic I added a bit more then took 1 more pic until it was perfect. Of course if you have someone helping you then this tip is pointless but works great if you are solo.

 

[11Stryker]

Excellent Idea SDSting! Also the auto parts sells a 1 insert repair kit like the Timesert for around 20.00. Tools can be used over, but only 1 insert. Which is all ya need any way.